May the Force of Mark Hamill’s common sense be with us all!
Reports are that Biden’s weak voice was due to a cold and sore throat. After all the Trumpian lies to explain away Biden’s expected strong performance by insisting he’d be high on some substance, wouldn’t it be ironic if the president had taken cold medicine that affected him negatively?
Immediately after the debate, which I was watching on MSNBC, the network cut to Joe Biden and Jill Biden entering a post-debate party in Atlanta, where he immediately perked up. Here’s what Rachel Maddow said then:
Nevertheless, the handwringing Democratic operatives rushed to express their dismay, and the mainstream media–predictably–is filled with stories about the imperative that he drop out.
Never mind that a) he won’t; b) there’s no one who could be acceptable to a broad segment of the party at this time; and c) he immediately recovered and wowed the crowd.
Strangely, no one suggests that the other man in that debate should withdraw. You know, the felonious, perverted, narcissistic, traitorous failure who lied so baldly during those ninety minutes that it would have been laughable if he weren’t such a clear and present danger to our country, the world, and the continuation of life on our planet.
Biden looked puzzled and slack-jawed. I don’t think all the debate prep could have bolstered him sufficiently to stand there while Trump incessantly reversed reality–claiming it was he who was the respected world leader, he who presided over peace, Biden whom historians rated the worst president ever, and Biden who was lying about what Trump said in Charlottesville, Virginia, about the neo-Nazis: that there were “very fine people on both sides.”
See below for the CNN fact-checker’s list of the barrage. Biden had to decide under a tight time constraint which lies to challenge. Tell me, please, what presidential skill this nonsense would have illuminated?
Trump even had the gall to say he didn’t really want to run for president again, but felt he had to because Biden had done such terrible things to the country. Wouldn’t such a candidate want to clear his name about all the felonious charges against him, and not seek the delays that will probably prevent further judicial action? That is clearly his intention and modus operandi.
Heather Cox Richardson has a wonderful piece on all this, which I encourage you to read here.
One important point she made was about something called the “Gish gallop.”
“This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
“It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: ‘Will you shut up, man?’ a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.“
Interestingly, here are two takes from focus groups immediately after Biden’s bad night. (The Univision discussion is in Spanish.)
CNN gained no glory from their handling of this event, and their decision to tell the moderators, Dana Bash and Jake Tapper, to refrain from any fact-checking reduced them to simply question posers. The network did have its hardworking fact-checker do his diligence well after the event. You can see his efforts here.
From former Republican strategist Rick Wilson, now a Never Trumper and pro-democracy activist with Resolute Square.
From Wilson’s colleague at Resolute Square: former Republican strategist, Never Trumper, and ardent Biden supporter Stuart Stevens (whom Richardson quoted in her piece linked to above))
“Don’t day trade politics. It’s a sucker’s game. A guy from Queens out on bail bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, said in public he didn’t have sex with a porn star, defended tax cuts for billionaires, defended Jan. 6th. and called America the worst country in the world. That guy isn’t going to win this race.”
And this from Robert Hubbell, in a piece he titled: “Joe Biden Is Going to Win. Buck Up!”
“Here is what we need to do: Redouble our efforts. Go to Joe Biden’s official campaign site (Joe Biden for President: Official Campaign Website) and make a donation now—the amount doesn’t matter. Millions of donations will be a vote of confidence for Biden. And that is what we need—confidence, not defeatism.
“How we comport ourselves, communicate the urgency of the cause, and articulate the issues will be the difference in the election. If we say Biden should drop out—even if we sincerely believe so—we are signaling to others that they should give up. Biden isn’t giving up, and neither should we. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if you believe Biden should drop out, the best thing you can do for your country is to keep your opinion to yourself to avoid dispiriting others.”
…..
“And suggesting that we abandon Joe Biden because he did not win one debate in the eyes of the media is unforgivable. When Trump was convicted of 34 felonies, his supporters rallied around him. When he was adjudicated to be a sexual abuser, his supporters rallied around him. When he was fined hundreds of millions of dollars for running fraudulent businesses in New York, his supporters rallied around him. So, when Joe Biden has an off night in a debate against a geyser of lies, we are going to abandon him? Seriously???? We are better than that, we are tougher than that, and we should be more loyal than that.
“In many ways, this is the start of the fight, not the end. Trump lied every moment he opened his mouth. We can deal with that when we are not constrained by two-minute alternative sound bites. Joe Biden needs to do better, true. But his surrogates in the administration must also be unleashed to carry part of the burden. MAGA extremists are everywhere, like invasive weeds. Democratic surrogates must match their reach but spread truth and hope instead of lies and hate.
“Here is my concluding thought: Joe Biden is the most successful president in the last 75 years. If he isn’t the smartest, he is the wisest and most experienced, except for FDR. He polls better than any of the fantasy-football ‘players to be named later’ who would allegedly replace him. On the merits, it is not a close contest. As Americans get closer to election day, they will pay attention to the ways that their lives will be worse under Trump and better under Biden. That truth will decide the election.“
It’s still three months before early voting begins in September, which is plenty of time for Biden to appear publicly and convince voters. In fact, The New York Times reported that he told a “large and boisterous crowd” in North Carolina today that he wouldn’t be running for reelection if he didn’t feel he was up to the task.
My husband and I just made another donation to the Biden/Harris campaign. If you agree that one bad night does not negate all the accomplishments, all the plans, and all that’s at stake in this election, I hope you’ll do the same. A small donation now will send a big message.
Annie
annieasksyou... 
Isn’t that why we are on the ride? The thrills? First hint of a breeze and they get all wobbly.🫤
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The point to me is that we need to make sure people don’t turn the breeze into a tornado. Biden has already “owned” his bad night publicly—he’s back up and dusting himself off, acknowledging his age but making comparisons between himself and that monster who seems to be worsening before our eyes, as impossible as that seems.
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It is not Joe. It’s the Democrats. Present company excepted😍, not an army of heros.
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Agreed, Annie that Joe Biden didn’t do as well as we’d hoped for. I just saw a video from a Biden campaign rally today, in North Carolina, I think, showing an entirely different Joe Biden–vigorous, forceful, loud enough to be easily heard. Don’t know what happened last night, but it was unfortunate, with the huge audience. I guess everyone can have a “bad day” (I certainly have had my share), but this one was ill-timed for Joe. Hope he can overcome it .
Also, it’s been well noted that Trump was nothing more that the serial; liar he’s always been. He seems to go by the old adage that, if you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it , even yourself. Hopefully, more and more voters are “on to” him.
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I think Biden has already overcome it, George. He’s scrappy Joe from Scranton. And I do think Trump did harm himself with voters last night by the ridiculously blatant lies he spewed.
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I very much hope that’s all so!
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The hysteria is ridiculous. It’s the same old left-politics-junkie, panic-at-every-setback, we’re-doomed-doomed–doomed bullshit we see every time something goes even slightly wrong. No, the fact that Biden had a cold on Thursday does not negate all his legislative accomplishments. Nor does it negate the sharpness he showed during the SOTU just a few months ago. Nor does it negate the fact that the alternative is a deranged con man and criminal who openly wants to turn the government into an instrument of personal revenge against enemies real and imagined, and is backed by authoritarian theocrats who plan to use him as a utensil to create a Putin-style regime here.
There hasn’t yet been time for the broad mass of voters to form opinions of the debate, much less for objective and competent polling to assess those reactions. At the very least, let’s wait to hear what the voters think before jumping to conclusions. Some focus groups have judged Biden the winner over Trump.
Obama did badly in his first debate against Romney in 2012. He improved in later debates, and the debates probably had negligible impact on the election result anyway.
For all the hysterics, nobody six months from now is going to look back on this debate and conclude that it was a pivotal moment. Most will probably hardly remember it.
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All good points, Infidel. Obama really bombed in his first debate.
Biden has already returned to the stump, before cheering crowds. Eric Swalwell says to call him “Joe Jobs” to remind everyone how successful he’s been.
And now with the radical SCOTUS’s far-reaching Chevron decision, again dangerously overturning precedent, we’re reminded that we can’t indulge in parlor games about the Democratic nominee.
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Oh, and “Gish gallop” is a term well known to me. It’s named for Duane Gish, a prominent creationist, who was known for spewing so many bullshit claims so quickly in debates with evolutionary biologists that it was impossible to refute them effectively due to the sheer time that would have been required, even though everything he was saying was nonsense. The term is still mostly used in the context of creation-vs-evolution “debates”, but it sounds appropriate to what Trump was doing here.
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Interesting. Thanks, Infidel.
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The prime example of the freakout was the FTFNYT’s “political” opinionists who all declared that Trump won and three of whom Tom Friedman, Frank Bruni and Nicholas Kristof all demanding that Biden stand down and let some un-named magical Democrat rise up like a savior to rescue them.
Idiots all.
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That’s exactly the point—this mystical ideal candidate.
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To steal a TVTropes entry , they’re waiting for their Manic Pixie Dream G̶i̶r̶l̶ Candidate.
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I know all of this. My dismay is an emotional reaction, not a logical one or a product of intelligence. I had higher hopes — hell, high hopes — for President Biden’s performance based on his SOTU address and the time he had to prepare. Seeing him not do as well as I’d expected or hoped undermines my optimism.
Yes, he’ll bounce back. He already has. My optimism is slowly climbing off the floor. While the debate doesn’t change my mind about the candidates, I hope others watching will overlook Biden’s performance for all the reasons you’ve given. I hope that ‘undecided’ voters will still recognize that Mr Biden is a far better POTUS than Trump ever was or could be. I hope to hell those undecided voters realize that Trump is a danger to the nation and the world and vote him down.
Vote Blue in 2024.
Cheers, M
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Overlook Biden’s performance? Certainly not. Why would we. He confused the abortion issue with an immigration issue. He proudly declared that he “beat Medicare.” That performance can’t just be “overlooked.” Yes, I agree, vote blue. We just need to go to the bullpen for someone else wearing blue. America deserves a better choice and most of America agrees with that assessment and that’s regarding both candidates.
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I hear you, Michael. I, too, was very disappointed. It was hard to watch.
I realize it’s probably unwise to read much into a single focus group, but I was pleased to see that the Univision focus group of undecided voters unanimously said they’d vote for Biden because of Trump’s lies. If any “good” came out of that awful non-debate, it was capturing Trump’s screed about migrants. I think we can expect the Biden campaign to show that snippet in New Mexico, Arizona, and elsewhere.
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No, no, no. Just – no.
Joe Biden didn’t just have a “bad” night. Barack Obama had a “bad” night in his first debate with Mitt Romney. Biden’s performance was two trains hauling dumpsters colliding on a collapsing RR trestle.
Cold medicine affecting him negatively? Please, let’s not do the “my dog ate my homework,” excuses.
In your piece, you offer the following responses to the calls for Biden to drop out. “Never mind that a) he won’t;
No, he won’t, but he shouldn’t have run in the first place. He promised to be transitional and he broke that promise and is on the verge of putting what passes for a democracy at risk. He is selfish in his decision to run. The idea of a person being president at the age of 86 is absurd on its face. Aside from dictators, world leaders recognize their shortcomings and let the new guard take the reins.
“b) there’s no one who could be acceptable to a broad segment of the party at this time;”
That is simply not true. The Democrats have the deepest bench they’ve had in decades. All of them ready and willing. Going into the debate, Biden himself was not acceptable to a broad segment of the party. He has been seen by many, myself included, as the lesser of two evils. He has lost a segment of his fragile 2020 coalition, a loss that can only be described in mild terms as troubling.
At the same time he has so pissed off the progressive wing of the party that many are ready to vote Stein, or West, or sit it out. I’ve been trying to convince some of my own progressive friends to stick with Biden despite the way he’s mishandled Gaza (and yes he has screwed it up six ways from Sunday). Trump will be worse for the Palestinians I tell them and the response has been, “I hate Biden for it and I can’t vote for him.”
Biden was being dogged by the age question and his performance last night put it front and center. I have long feared that on the verge of the election Biden would have a McConnell moment and last night he got pretty damned close to having his own 90 minute version of a McConnell moment.
and c) he immediately recovered and wowed the crowd.
Irrelevant. The damage was done and most of the people who saw the debate had already seen enough. Most voters aren’t the political junkies who would’ve hung on, and those are the ones who need to be convinced. We don’t get to blame the mainstream media for the casual normies not watching the after party.
In your piece, you take CNN to task, “CNN gained no glory from their handling of this event, and their decision to tell the moderators, Dana Bash and Jake Tapper, to refrain from any fact-checking reduced them to simply question posers.”
Fact checking Trump was Joe Biden’s job and he failed at it, time and time and time and time again. It’s a cardinal sin in baseball to throw a hitter a belt high fastball over the middle of the plate because chances are the hitter will send it into the next county. Donald Trump threw belt high fastball after belt high fastball and not only did Biden not connect, he didn’t even swing.
The fattest pitch came right at the start with the abortion issue and not only did Biden not swing, he stepped out of the batter’s box and drifted off into a confused riff about women being killed by migrants.
“Strangely, no one suggests that the other man in that debate should withdraw.” Because everyone knows he won’t? Trump is in it for Trump. Trump is a horrible excuse for a human and another Trump presidency will bring this nation to its knees. What Trump will do is one part of the multipart question. The other part is, can Biden do the job?
“Biden looked puzzled and slack-jawed. I don’t think all the debate prep could have bolstered him sufficiently to stand there while Trump incessantly reversed reality–claiming it was he who was the respected world leader …”
The first is true. The remainder is a red herring.
Of course Trump lied. Fib, after whopper, after fable. after canard. Did anybody expect something else? To say that Biden was flummoxed by the lies ignores the fact that his number one strategy should have been to categorically challenge those lies (the belt high fastballs that Biden decided to spit on). To challenge the lies was probably strategy number one. It wasn’t executed. Instead his response was to constantly respond, “The idea!” Everytime he said that he came off as the stereotype of a scandalized, straight laced old biddy.
In fact, two of Biden’s biggest gaffes came early on, when Trump’s lies amounted to a hill rather than a mountain. Those two gaffes? The abortion/migrant confusion and Biden’s proclamation that he “beat Medicare.” “Beat Medicare” – my god.
The case can be made that Biden did better in 2020, and in those debates Trump not only lied but he was completely out of control. This time around Trump lied but there was not the added distraction of Trumpian antics.
If there has been one constant to the Biden campaign, it’s been the crossed fingers and tightened sphincters that follow him into every event; the hope that he won’t “show his age.” Is this what we want in a candidate? It’s certainly not what we deserve.
I’m not as big of a Biden fan as you or your other readers – clearly. I’ll admit that he’s had a good run. But Biden needs to be judged on what we expect over the coming four years and not what he’s done. We should not cast a vote figuring that if the president elect isn’t up to it then we always have the vice-president as a fall back. If last night’s debate performance was an interview to be CEO of a company, there is no way that the candidate would be hired.
Thankfully this mess took place in June, while there is still time to find a better candidate.
I’m frankly not interested in what Mark Hamill said or Seth Abramson, or Rick Wilson. I could come up with an equal number of pundits and celebrities who were as appalled as I was. I’ll go with what I saw.
I was going to vote for Biden because I wanted his general election numbers as high as possible so that Trump has less of a case in the event that he pulls another 2020. Now I’m not so sure. I live in California so I’m certain that Biden will carry the state. That said, I don’t know that I can vote for a man who is clearly not up to the job.
I’m sorry for the long missive but we deserve better.
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Who is this savior? but we deserve better. No we don’t!
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Savior? As I pointed out in my response, the Democrats are rich in potential candidates. Newson, Whitmer, Sherrod Brown, J B Pritzker, Josh Shapiro, Rafael Warnock, Andy Beshear, and even, despite her bad polling, Harris herself. The Democrats have never been so rich in talent. I’d even take Michelle Obama at this point.
And yes, we do deserve better. Don’t just take it from me, most Americans detest the choice of Biden v Trump that’s been foisted on them. The Republican Party has become a cult, hence Trump. The Democrats have gone with the tradition of deferring to the so-called heir apparent. How did that work out in 2016?
For decades, Democrats have pointed to Ronald Reagan’s diminished capacity. Can you for one moment think that if the shoe was on the other foot, if Trump had shown such an inability to perform that you wouldn’t be calling for him to step aside?
Last night, the world saw Biden’s diminished capacity. The world. What can both our adversaries and our allies be thinking now?
Even if we grant the notion that Biden might be, unseen to us, up to the task, the very appearance of this man’s inability to counter Trump’s lies and to give consistent coherent responses to questions is beyond troubling. Part of being a successful leader is to look the part. Did we see a leader last night? Was this the man who inspires confidence? I didn’t see Churchill up there last night. Sadly I witnessed a remembrance of my own father in the years before he descended into dementia.
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I speak of a breeze and Ms Annie speaks of tornados and you unleash a torrent.😉Apropos to likes it means I read your comment, respectful acknowledgement🥱 Have you heard the idiom “It is unwise to change horses in midstream. What you propose will result in the election of fascism and the death of democracy. But I am positive that you know that. In so many words.🤔
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Yes I did unleash a torrent. But it’s not just my torrent. It’s been the torrent of an electorate that has for some time now expressed the opinion that neither of these candidates is acceptable.
Well, we all knew what Trump would do, didn’t we? He doesn’t care about anything but Trump and keeping Trump out of jail (something which is, by the day, appearing to be unlikely). The Democrats? They fell back on the tried and sometimes failed strategy of deferring to the incumbent/heir apparent (how did that work out in 2016?)
Joseph R. Biden was the savior in 2020. I am grateful for that. He told the electorate that he would be a transitional candidate. That’s what I and many who voted for him bought into. He’s gone back on that. He also claims to want to put the American people first. By running for reelection he is NOT putting the wishes of the American people first, he is putting his own personal goals first. Don’t take my word for it, every poll over the past year or more has said that. Both men have long been aware that the voting public is not looking for a rematch. Trump doesn’t care about that. Biden should but apparently doesn’t.
“It is unwise to change horses in midstream?” It doesn’t “rain cats and dogs,” and I don’t expect that “I’ll be kicking a bucket,” much less anything else, when I expire. So, that’s what I think of idioms.
I would be interested to know just how Biden is going to lift himself off of the mat. The Trump campaign is going to be showing clips of Biden saying he “beat Medicare,” from now until election day and beyond. Biden won’t have the opportunity to redeem himself in another debate. There’s nothing in it for Trump given Biden’s performance. And Biden’s people would be (more) insane to try and arrange one.
Here is my question to you. If Trump were a serious candidate, say a Romney or a McCain, who put forth such a disjointed debate effort, would you not be questioning that candidate’s fitness?
The issue is not just about Trump. The issue is who will be in charge for four more years. If Biden wins, what will he be in two years? Three years?
It is a short window. Biden needs to step aside or press on – now. He’s going to press on of course. My feeling is that he’s going to lose and his legacy will be that he will have been a party to bringing down what passes for our democracy.
Finally, please don’t be so presumptive as to tell me what I know or don’t know. If you want to be condescending we can end the conversation here.
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No worries mate you’re too wordy anyway.😉
If Trump were a serious candidate, Who is the serious candidate you think the Republicans will put on the ballot?
If Biden wins, what will he be in two years? In two years he will after pesiding over the most successul presidency in history will hand over the reins to the well qualified Kamala Harris to finish out his term positioning her with three keys and an expanded court to bring all Americans full rights and freedoms.
Finally small minds are easy to read. I bet you can read mine. Hit the like button we’re trying to get to 1000 subscribers.🤣
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So according to your scenario, not only is the unpopular Biden v Trump foisted on a disapproving electorate, in the case of Biden, they’re getting a president with a planned two year shelf life. Perfect. Welcome to machine politics.
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Hello, Paul. As you and I have traversed some of this territory before, I’m going to jump right to the part of the issue on which we agree: A Trump presidency must be avoided at all cost. Whatever we can do to make that scenario most likely is what we should do.
I strongly differ with you on your contentions about the realism of reaching that goal by replacing Biden. I think that to do so will ensure Trump’s election. Biden’s success in winning was that he ran as Joe from Scranton, a center-left candidate. His success in governing has been in uniting the fractious parts of the Democratic coalition. I won’t argue with you that that coalition is frayed now, but I think it’s indisputable that progressives have achieved more during a Biden administration than they thought imaginable–including a more equitable tax system. He has given every indication that he wants to fight for more, eg, child care tax credits, etc. These are important issues for Americans that progressives say they want–that most Americans want. Progressives sure won’t get them voting for Jill Stein. They tried that in 2016.
And to state the obvious, incumbency has power and must not be dismissed
Yes–the Democrats have a deep bench, or will in four years. The problems with making that decision by July include the following:
1. All the names you mention are unknown to most of the electorate.
2. VP Harris is the obvious front-runner. I think she’d make a good president, and her numbers are rising. But there’s not enough time for her to win over enough of the electorate now. However, if her status as the heir apparent is ignored, the Democrats’ bulwark Black women will be alienated. (I have already noticed a number of Black men and women consultants and politicians expressing offense by the cavalier way the Democrats are talking about getting rid of Biden.)
4. An open convention will lead to a battle royal that will tear the party apart–with too little time to unite it.
5. Getting on the ballot in all fifty states is not easily done. Ask RFK Jr about that. In fact, as The Politics Girl has observed (https://x.com/IAmPoliticsGirl/status/1806814946937979217), the Republicans have already declared their intention to sue Democrats’ efforts to do so all the way up to the Supreme Court.
6. Biden has a huge war chest. No governor has any such thing. Pritzker probably comes closest.(I’m for getting money out of politics, but that’s a pipe dream. It’s essential today.)
7. Biden as a lame duck bolsters Putin and all the world’s dictators and makes it more likely we’ll find ourselves at war. We’re already hearing that Putin and Kim Jong Un are planning an “October Surprise.”
I suggest you read Seth Abramson’s piece, “The Extremely Simple Reason MAGA Wants President Joe Biden to End His Campaign.” https://open.substack.com/pub/sethabramson/p/the-extremely-simple-reason-maga?r=9rk4h&utm_medium=ios.
His list is more detailed than mine.
Abramson’s final sentence is “To sum up, if your political enemies are begging you to do something, maybe ask why?”
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Annie, At this point, there’s no reason to continue to argue about the need for Biden to step away. He won’t. If he was going to he would have done so by now.
That said, for the sake of discussion, I believe that a Whitmer/Shapiro ticket would stand as good a chance at defeating Trump as Biden/Harris. It would sew up two swing states, and Michigan is important because Biden, vis a vis his horrible Gaza policy, stands to lose that state. Whitmer/Shapiro could also sew up the neighboring state of Wisconsin along with Shapiro’s PA.
As for name recognition, Biden’s recognition has largely been tied to two words, “too old.” The debate only exacerbated that.
I think that a Whitmer/Shapiro ticket, with its youth and energy could reenergize what has appeared to be a lackluster campaign. Really Joe? We’re talking about alley cats. I suppose that resonates with voter over 60. Comparing Trump to Herbert Hoover? Why not compare him to Winslow Homer or Leland Stanford. He and his campaign need to do better.
It wouldn’t take long for Whitmer/Shapiro to gain name recognition and both have the potential to excite voters who are ready to look elsewhere.
Too many voters are disappointed, apathetic, angry or disgusted when it comes to Biden (put me in the latter category). Don’t take my word for it, look at the polling where down ballot Democrats.
are polling better than the president. Wait until Sherrod Brown politely asks Biden to stay away from Ohio.
Regarding your point # 7, Putin is a patient man and he can wait until January for Biden to be a lame duck (and Biden’s performance in the debate did nothing to reassure allies or frighten adversaries).
Biden is looking to be rehired in November, and that should be based on what he will be during the coming four years and not so much what he has done.
Based on his debate performance (conflating the abortion issue with a migrant murder and boasting about beating Medicare where horrible), based on the fact that he’s not shown up at events as he should (the traditional Super Bowl interview comes readily to mine), based on his very appearance and his decline over the past four years, what exactly can we expect come 2026?
Another commenter on this thread predicts that Biden will resign in 2026 and hand the reins to Harris. Is that how it works? We order a burger and get a hot dog? Have we become a nation that sets up lines of succession and regimes? That’s “banana republic” or Tammany Hall kind of stuff.
Do I have to vote for a president who as likely as not will either be too tired to take on the four year term or who plans to step aside after the midterm elections.
I already feel like Biden’s decision to run for reelection was a betrayal of an implicit promise. Does he plan to betray the voters again?
Yeah, I’ll vote for Biden again but this is going to be the most difficult, the most, “it stinks from the head down vote,” I will have ever cast since my very first vote when I voted against Nixon.
We Americans deserve better. A too large segment of the electorate hates this choice. It shouldn’t be that way.
Paul
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I like to deal with data.
Let’s start with the suggested “replacements” for Joe Biden. I follow politics more than the average person. I have no idea who some of these people are. Andy Beshear? Pritzer? Shapiro? They may be known to hard core Dems but they have no name recognition outside that universe.
Whitmer is having trouble in her own state. Warnock is not POTUS material. Brown and Newsom are way too overall and would easily be branded very quickly as”communists” and “socialists”. Harris has already been castigated as a “communist” by the MAGAs. This is not a strong bench in any sense of the word, not in a national election where half the population is moderate to conservative.
To invent an acceptable persona in less than 4 months time and make people comfortable with them is not going to happen. Biden is a well know individual. No one expects him to be “exciting”, as if that should be a quality we want in a POTUS anyway. He is a workhorse gets things done. He certainly has gotten passed some amazing legislation, with Pelosi’s help. And he has been very clear on what he wants to see happen in the next 4 years.
Data. What data is there to suggest that all these Dems don’t want Biden? If that were the case why has he out raised Trump in terms of small donations? Just because some Dems and pundits see the presidency as a TV show and the POTUS as a talk show host that does not translate into most people not wanting him. I think folks often fall into the trap of repeating the “pundits”, most of whom have no clue as to what common people think.
If the debate was an interview for the job of CEO then Biden would not get the job? It depends. Do you want your CEO to be a bull shitter or someone who gets the job done. Someone who has a proven track record or some glib individual who tells you what you want to hear? The debate (which is really a list of soundbites) is not a job interview. It has no depth. I know a lot of people who may not interview well but are much better at their jobs than the slick talkers.
I will use a sports analogy, because like it or not, elections are games. With rules. And the point is to win. There is a reason why the best teams keep veterans around. Guys that don’t run as fast as they used to. Guys that can’t throw the ball 75 yards any longer. Guys that may be “over the hill” in some skill areas. Why keep these guys around? One reason. They know how to win. Tom Brady is not considered one of the greatest QBs because of his speed or even his throwing accuracy. He knew how to read the defense. He knew when to audible. He knew when to throw the ball away and get ready for the next play. Because of his experience he knew what the team had to do to win.
Biden (and his exceptionally talented team) know how to win. They can count votes. They have a ground game to get out the vote. They have lawyers lined up to take on the MAGA court challenges. They are a proven commodity.
Is Biden perfect? Of course not. But we must not fall into the MAGA trap of viewing the presidency as a dictatorship or a one man show. A performance. One poor performance (and a great deal of it was NOT poor, just not reported by the press) does not make a difference at this stage of the game. Its the first quarter and there is a long way to go.
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This was almost the reverse of the Kennedy Nixon debate. Multiple surveys after that debate showed that people who listened to it on Radio felt Nixon had a draw or better it was the people who watched it who gave it overwhelmingly to Kennedy.
As we are seeing the news and media consuming public have become more discerning since then. This is shown by the people who “listened” rather then watched. Yes Joe made some flubs but he also laid into demented donnie who just repeated the same false mantra to every question. We are seeing this from the “bump” Biden has gotten right after the debate before all the talking heads started to explain to them that they should not liten to what their lying ears heard but rather to what the pundits tell tem they should hear.
Just as an adage in politics has often said is that it’s not the sin but the coverup that kills political futures so may it be said that it is not the pundit defined “failure” but the perceived panic of the party that kills campaigns.
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I agree with you, anynameleft. I read through portions of the transcript, and it didn’t sound bad at all.
I, too, have heard “ordinary Americans” say that Joe may have flubbed a bit, but he knew what he was talking about and didn’t lie. I’m hoping the party stands with him. If so, this may turn out to have lit the fire he needed.
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Great post Annie. I agree with those who thought Biden’s performance was a disaster. In my mind, he only had two jobs: appear stately and get under Trump’s skin but neither happened. However, I don’t think he should step down!?!?! Democrats are perceived as weak when compared to Republicans and reactions like this partially explain why. Biden’s failings pale in comparison to Trump’s. If we want to win the election, we need to take a cue from our adversaries: quit the hand wringing and double down.
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Thank you, Carol. I agree. Biden is obviously doubling down, and so should the rest of us!
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Thank you, Annie. May your wisdom ripple out for long ways around! And, yes, I made a contribution this morning! Felt fine.
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So glad to hear that, ali. CNBC reported the Biden campaign raised $27 million between the day of the debate and Friday evening.
I greatly appreciate your support.
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I appreciate all you do, Annie!
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Any opportunity for Trump to gain his, 3-nanoseconds of glory, he will take advantage of, because, it boosts his own ego, and, are the voters in the U.S., really that, easily, manipulated by him??? And, it all depends if the American voting population sees through his circus show or not…and, on the other hand, Biden would be, an, unsound choice for president too, because, he’s, starting to show signs of, Alzheimer’s, acting improperly and, inappropriately, and, so, it come down to his, running mate, Harris, would she be, a good, “stand in” as a, commander-in-chief, the, head of state???
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I disagree, taurusingemini. Jill Biden is fiercely protective of her husband, and if she was seeing signs of dementia, she would tell him to withdraw.
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Well, I feel better having read this write-up. Am sending it around . . . thank you!
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You’re very welcome, Denise. So glad you found this piece helpful.
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I had the pleasure of watching Michael Jordan of the Chicago bulls in action in a game in Toronto. On the very first play he shot the ball and missed. It bounced out. I immediately went down to the Bulls bench and DEMANDED he be pulled from the game and a substitute be brought in. For some reason the coach, Phil Jackson, ignored my request and left MJ in . After all, he was an MVP and had won a few championships. Horrible decision in my mind. As it turned out Jordan did ok for the rest of the game… and career.
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THANK YOU, Annie … I was beginning to think I was the only person who thinks President Biden’s accomplishments far outweigh one bad debate night! I knew I could count on you to be the voice of reason! I did make a small donation to Biden’s campaign last night … I typically do not donate to political campaigns, in part because I don’t have money to spare, and in part because if I do have a few dollars, I think it’s more important to support causes that help the poor, but in this case I had to somehow show my support. Thanks again, my friend.
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Hi, Jill. I saw your post and plan to return to read it carefully.
There are many of us, including TokyoSand, I just saw. And good for you for making a donation, departing at this important point from your noble practice.
I was puzzled by a link in this thread to one of my previous posts about messaging. I tried to follow it but couldn’t. ??
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Yes, I saw TokyoSand’s post earlier today and was pleased. I think the storm is beginning to pass, and a week from now this will be naught but a blip on the radar. As re the link … I tested it last night before posting this and it worked fine … I’m not sure why it didn’t work for you, but I’ll check it out innabit. It’s one I had reblogged back in November: https://jilldennison.com/2023/11/18/annie-talks-we-should-listen/
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The “dump Biden” hysteria already seems to be fading. For example, comparing the headlines on the Daily Kos front page today with those on Friday, most of the “we’re DOOMED!!!” stuff has already dropped off and been replaced with calmer and more long-term views that relegate the bad debate to its proper, relatively-low importance. I guess time gives people more perspective.
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Sure hope so. Biden’s working hard. Now we need the party leaders to make their public full-throated statements of support.
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I disagree Annie, this wasn’t just a bad night. It was THE night, Biden’s campaign asked for this, his big chance to show everyone what he could do and not only did he not come through, he made it ten times worse.
Since I’m not American I’ll beseech you on behalf of the rest of the world to not hand your country over to the evil lunatics just to prove some point. Do something before it’s two late, get Witmer and Newsome, or somebody. I just can’t believe you’ve got 340 million people and these two are the best you can do??
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Sorry to read this, Doug. I refer you to my response to Paul, in which I cite the many reasons to believe that dumping Biden would ensure a Trump victory. I include two relevant links. Kind regards.
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Thanks Annie. I’d agree with you if it had been any other speech on any other night. The stakes were simply too high to fail, and it was a failure.
I read Abramson’s piece, please have a listen to Friday’s Bulwark podcast, aside from picking up on their obvious panic they lay out the rebuttal.
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I whole heartedly agree Doug. Biden’s camp asked for the debate and they asked for the format. All Biden had to do was to score a C- and he came up with an incomplete. Biden’s performance was shocking and disappointing.
Democrats who want Biden to stand down don’t have the stones to speak on the record and as I write this, the Biden camp is gaslighting the public about the debate. (Keeping true feeling anonymous and gaslighting. Two activities that the Democrats call out the Republicans for)
We all deserve better. Do you know what characterizes the runup to every Biden appearance? The audience is white knuckling an armchair and reciting Hail Marys in the hopes that he won’t lapse, fall, or have a Mitch McConnell moment. An audience should be anticipating a fiery speech, a full throated proclamation detailing how he’s going to improve the lot of every citizen. It shouldn’t sit down in trepidation that the candidate will brag about “beating Medicare,” or arguing with his opponent over golf handicaps like two drunks in a dive bar.
Biden isn’t going to quit. That’s the sad bottom line. Asking him to quit would be like the day I asked my father to turn over his car keys when it was clear he shouldn’t be driving.
I will disagree with you on one point. You asked the question, “I just can’t believe you’ve got 340 million people and these two are the best you can do??” No they aren’t. The Democrats have Whitmer, Shapiro, Warnock, Newsom, Buttigieg, Pritzger and even Michelle Obama. Harris is a non-starter because she polls worse than Biden (and if Biden wins, Harris is going to be the heir apparent in 2028, so don’t feel too secure even if Biden does pull off a win).
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Pundits like controversy. Elections are not won or lost in one night or on one bad performance. If they were, the Hollywood tapes would have sunk Trump’s election in 2016. Elections are won by the hardworking folks on the ground. Who make the phone calls. Provide rides to the polls. Get out the vote. It’s the long game. Send in those $10 donations. No one on the Democratic side, other than Biden, has the infrastructure in place to have any chance of winning. And, in my opinion, this election, like 2020 is more about Trump than Biden. The pro-Trump and anti-Trump voters are not going to change. It will hinge on convincing the independents in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona and Nevada. Just keep reminding them of the Trump years.
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Let me start with this. I have no other recourse than to concede that (a) Biden will not drop out of the race, and, (b) this election is largely about Trump. As much as I would like both men to drop out and leave the presidency in more reassuring hands, those are the facts that will not change.
That said, I have to disagree with you on some points.
“Elections are not won or lost in one night or on one bad performance. If they were, the Hollywood tapes would have sunk Trump’s election in 2016.”
We don’t really know that, because three weeks after Access Hollywood, Jim Comey essentially erased that tape when he sent a letter to Congress, which, along with Jill Stein and a botched Michigan strategy helped to sink Hillary Clinton (another election in which a vast segment of the electorate was displeased by the choice offered).
And yes, I get it, it’s about Trump.
“The pro-Trump and anti-Trump voters are not going to change.” On the former, I agree. The cult is not going to change. It’s all in with Trump. On the latter, I disagree. There are many voters who dislike Trump but will grudgingly either vote for Trump or more likely sit the election out. There is a large swath of progressives and Arab-Americans, particularly in battle ground Michigan who are anti-Trump, but are so angry with Biden over Gaza that they refuse to vote for him under any circumstances. One may argue that it makes no sense as Trump will be worse for Palestinians, and I’ve made that argument to friends in that camp, but they’re not having it. Call those people what you will, those are the facts.
And yes, I get it, it’s about Trump.
“It’s about the long game.” Yes – it is. And the long game should have been considered by the Democratic hierarchy a long time ago and should have told Biden that he would not be getting its support in 2024. Unprecedented? Yes. Then again what hasn’t been during the last nine years? The Democratic hierarchy has (once again) failed the party at large.
And yes, I get it, it’s about Trump.
“Pundits like controversy.” This isn’t about pundits. It’s about voters. And many of them, according to numerous focus groups, have serious concerns over what they saw on Thursday night. This wasn’t a bad performance by Biden. A bad performance might be a C- or a D and all Biden had to do was get C- (or even a D). He didn’t show up. It was an incomplete. It was appalling. The Joe Biden who showed up at the debate is the Joe Biden who every Democrat was holding his breath and hoping would never show up.
To be quite honest, I’m appalled at the reaction from most people on this thread which is essentially that, Annie has produced a couple of pundits who said everything’s fine, and so it’s okay if we just sort pretend we didn’t see what we saw or just chalk it up to a dose of NyQuill
In 2008, one of the criticisms of John McCain was that, at age 71, he was too old to run for president. Seventy-one. A veritable youngster compared with the two guys we have now. I wonder if anyone on this thread would deny that they weren’t buying into that argument at the time because, well, McCain was their guy. To take it further, if McCain in 2008, had turned in the performance that Biden turned in, would any Democrat who’s trying to shrug off Biden’s performance, deny that they would have called for McCain to suspend his candidacy. But because Biden is “our guy,” we can give him a pass?
And yes, I get it, it’s about Trump.
But it should also be about Joe Biden, and it should have been about Joe Biden for a long time. No, we can’t have Trump in office. At the same time I find it discouraging that there is little or no concern being expressed by too many Democrats about Biden. After all, he might very well be the president and he didn’t look very presidential on June 27th.
For another take, I suggest visiting the most recent Bulwark, https://www.thebulwark.com/p/sarah-longwell-jonathan-v-last-and
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Paul. I appreciate your reply. But I have to point out a few things.
This election is almost unique in that both candidates have been POTUS. McCain and Obama had no record to run on. By Obama’s second term, his awful performance on the first debate did not hurt him precisely because he had a record and most people liked what he had done.
Biden can run on his record. So can Trump. Although Trump will continue to lie constantly about his poor performance, the Biden campaign can emphasize the good things Joe has accomplished and contrast that with Trump’s incompetency.
In addition, Trump is now a convicted felon. As Biden said , “(Trump) is a one man crime wave” They will continue to emphasize Trump’s felonies, his sex abuse of women and his corruption. It won’t matter to the MAGAs but it will matter to many undecideds.
The immediate debate response were all about “pundits”. There were no polls to suggest Biden should stop down. It was all about “pundits” getting their opinions out there, for what they are worth. People aren’t stupid. They understand that someone can have an off night. A bad performance. Anyone who would make a decision based solely on one series of soundbites (which is what modern “debates” have become) can just as easily be changed by the next soundbite.
Hillary Clinton did not lose to Trump because of Jill Stein or Jim Comey. She lost due to hubris. She and her team were so arrogant that they rented a room with a glass ceiling. Then in the last week of the campaign they decided to ignore Michigan and Pennsylvania and go to a state they could not win, Arizona. Because they wanted a “big victory”. The Biden team knows better. They are fighting and clawing for every vote in the states that matter. They are organized. There is no comparison between the Clinton campaign and the Biden campaign.
Bottom line. Biden needs to win Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Nevada. That’s the election. He doesn’t need Georgia or N Carolina or Arizona. I can do the math. So can the Biden campaign.
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I had been working on a long response to Paul and DougD after listening to the entire Bulwark podcast. I lost that comment in progress when I went to get the link to historian Alan Lightman’s CNN interview in which he explains why the Democrats’ chances will be diminished if our incumbent president is forced to withdraw. (Lightman has accurately predicted the presidential winner since the 1980s.)
President Biden and his family are meeting this weekend to discuss the road ahead. As Jill Biden and his sister Valerie are Biden’s closest confidantes and political advisers, I trust they will advise him based on what they believe is best for both him and our country. They are in the best position to know whether what happened during that debate was merely a bad night or something more significant. (I say that realizing there are no guarantees…)
We won’t know immediately, but I assume if they all decide it’s best for him to declare he won’t be the standard-bearer, he will announce that quite soon.
The Bulwark podcast served only to remind me that there are risks no matter what decisions are made. Frankly, I found these pundits no more informative than the ones I quoted in my post–the ones whose views led Paul to be “appalled” by the commenters who found them encouraging. Sarah Longwell, whose work I respect, struck me as particularly out of touch with her cavalier dismissal of the impact of bypassing VP Harris, and her dream scenario in which the governors coalesce and Biden and Harris patriotically accede.
The only worthwhile note I heard was that if Biden decides to remain as the Democrats’ candidate, everyone will work hard to help him win.
At this point, I believe it’s best for us all to sit tight and see how events evolve over the next several weeks. I appreciate your sharing your views, realize we all have a common goal, and now request that we end this discussion.
Thanks,
Annie
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